I look at ceramic tile as a lifetime-of the house-product, so I use the best material for the job.I prefer to use cement board as the substrate with the Kerdi on top. This will include installing its components, such as drain plate and drain collar, as well as Kerdi Band for further protection of seams and corners. And second, since it's foam, the board is super easy to cut with just a utility knife. How long should I wait after painting on the Redgard before I try to reapply the membrane? On a vertical surface, very little moisture . Ideally the DalSeal TS would fold into the gap between the wall and ceiling concrete board. How did this project turn out? Builder saying he doesn't want to put my trim tile in here. What is a word for the arcane equivalent of a monastery? Furthermore, if another trade, such as the shower glass installers, makes a mistake then you'll be . To subscribe to this RSS feed, copy and paste this URL into your RSS reader. Schluter-KERDI | Waterproofing (KERDI) | Schluter We like that the Kerdi membrane material installs easily over almost any substrate, including standard wallboard. To line niche shelves, for instance. I just a few weeks ago put kerdi on top of hardi-board in my shower and it was PAINFUL! RedGard, on the other hand, is a liquid waterproofing membrane made by Custom Building Products. Using modified thinset on KERDI can be tricky and in some cases, it can cause issues. By clicking Accept all cookies, you agree Stack Exchange can store cookies on your device and disclose information in accordance with our Cookie Policy. You are telling someone "to have" an artistry that not only takes art skills, knowing how to mix mortar for different situations, and a good amount of practice. If any is found, wait a few more hours and then re-inspect. Most of the entries in the NAME column of the output from lsof +D /tmp do not begin with /tmp. A quality underlayment will also serve as a waterproof barrier between the subfloor and the tile surface. Most cement-based thin-set mortars are suitable; however, it is important to check the manufacturers instructions to ensure that the product is approved for use with Schluter systems. This is the traditional tile backer. Even the tiling subs have moved away from mortar walls because of the labor cost and lack of craftsmen in the industry. Stack Exchange network consists of 181 Q&A communities including Stack Overflow, the largest, most trusted online community for developers to learn, share their knowledge, and build their careers. If so, that means breaking up the floor pan. First Kerdi can be installed on drywall or cement board. The Kerdi/Daltile TS underlayments do have some valid applications such as in steam shower installations where a bullet proof vapor barrier is required. An extra layer of thinset is then added to the surface of the cement board to adhere the tiles in place. Actually if you watch any pros work (not on crappy shows) on TV you will see them use backer board 99% of the time. This creates a strong, waterproof tile backer that also functions as an uncoupling membrane. Yup! How should I transition between cement board floor and alcove tub? Is this overkill? Cement board is the industry standard when it comes to tile substrates and the most preferred among professionals when installing porcelain or ceramic tile. When I tried to use the edge of my trowel [per schlutter video] I could see I was pulling a lot of the 'felt' off the backer. If a pipe or faucet ever leaks in the wall this will ruin your shower. rev2023.3.3.43278. Everyone knows brick and stucco, but what about fiber cement and metal? To get the most protection from the cement board, it should be installed in a way that ensures it is waterproof, in addition to being secured properly with the right adhesive and screws. If you want a cement board, use Durock or Wonderboard. Cement board (cbu) is not waterproof, but is not damaged by being wet. Some being easier to work with than others. About an argument in Famine, Affluence and Morality, Acidity of alcohols and basicity of amines. Building Panel: Price $ 119 00 $ 202 06 $ 279 00. Kerdi can be installed first on drywall or cement board. Will be replacing tub shower combination with tiled shower in my home. Hi David. Kerdi, a waterproofing membrane made of a special polyethylene fabric, should be allowed to completely dry prior to tiling. @DMoore- OK, I agree that with redguard it would be redundant. We ended up sponging the Hardi and wetting and booking the Kerdi (a la wallpaper), and that made the installation go much smoother. When installing KERDI with unmodified thin-set mortar over particularly dry and porous substrates, it is recommended to wet the substrate first, in order to help prevent premature drying or skinning of the thin-set mortar. We think it is the cement board (Durock) sucking the moisture out of the unmodified thinset. This thread is 9 years old and it's the Hardi board that's thirsty not the Kerdi. To waterproof Hardie board, you should choose a quality sealer that is designed for use on cement-based sidings. The manual can be found here: http://floorelf.com/waterproof, I would say unless you are experienced in working with Schluter-Kerdi waterproofing membrane kit, then I would say work with an easier waterproofing approach, either liquid waterproofing or a combination of liquid and traditional waterproofing (plastic covering the wood frame). see Prop 65 WARNINGS. Why does drywall work in a Kerdi Shower? - Terry Love Plumbing Advice We are no longer supporting IE (Internet Explorer), Do not Sell or Share My Personal Information. Thanks to Mongo's earlier post, we knew we'd have to spritz the Hardi -- but found that even that wasn't quite enough. Since the existing wall board will be removed, I'd prefer to go a little extra and install a water proof cement board type base so the tile has a solid substrate even if it were to get wet . Significantly more time and effort is required to ensure a quality bond when using a modified thinset adhesive with KERDI, and for this reason, it is usually not recommended. I have watched it done 10-15 times, have good skills, and if I tried to make large mortar walls myself it might like a little kid threw up concrete Should I use Kerdi membrane or cement backerboard? My idea is to block in and install the tub in the existing corner, erect the new wet wall, and use hardi-backer to shim the wall out over the tub flange, then apply kerdi over the whole thing.Does kerdi take offense at being installed over hardi? See the foam bench and the corners. Bulk update symbol size units from mm to map units in rule-based symbology. Ratings (91) (5) (91) (3 . It is lightweight and made of expanded polystyrene. Sweeby-Can you clarify- I undestood that the thinset would tend to dry out from the thirsty hardi or skim over from the air; so how does booking the Kerdi help with the first? x 96 in. Installation. For the floor I make a dry mix mud base and then the Kerdi membrane. When I do another shower I'll use real cement board, not Hardi-board. . Browse other questions tagged, Start here for a quick overview of the site, Detailed answers to any questions you might have, Discuss the workings and policies of this site. Fixing that is not that easy though. Why do small African island nations perform better than African continental nations, considering democracy and human development? It fell right off? The boards come in three-foot by five-foot and four-foot by eight-foot panels, sized for efficient use in bathrooms. The product involves an extruded polystyrene foam panel, with specialized reinforcement materials on both sides. It allows you to easily and quickly create tile-ready elements in bathtub surrounds and platforms, vanities, showers, shelving, and much more. Regardless, cement board is a great, trusted tile substrate that will work well on both walls and floors. What to use to flatten and prep wall before installing Schluter Kerdi membrane for tiling? taping and prepping cement board for tile - Home Improvement Forum That means that you do not have to rely on a surface membrane or worry about the board failing if the core is exposed to water. Additionally, all seams should be sealed with Kerdi Fix and covered with fleece. Can you put Kerdi over cement board? - TipsFolder.com I'm thirsty. It looks like you have Kerdi installed on the floor and not Kerdi Board. Schulter Ditra is manufactured by Schluter Systems and is a 1/8 thick polyethylene uncoupling membrane that is specifically designed for tile installations. Foam-core tile backing board has two big advantages over other backer boards. Make sure the floor is level in the shower. Applying a conventional cement backer board to such a structure is almost impossible. Kerdi vs Redguard cost breakdown. : r/HomeImprovement - reddit Though, each product comes with its own individual characteristics, and pros and cons. Cement board is a bit better, but you need to spray either one before applying the mortar so that it doesn't "skin over" before you can get the Kerdi up. One thing I do like fibercement (Hardie) for is when I need thin strips of cement board. Rolling pin, good, now I can throw away my magnesium float.LOLCasey. Also are you saying that you wet ("booking the Kerdi") the Kerdi, as well? It works well, is what Schluter recommends and I've never had an issue with it. kerdi membrane over osb Yes, you should prime drywall before installing KERDI in order to ensure proper adhesion and a successful installation. My floor tiles are 2" x 2"." - Lisa Jasper No - you can not use Kerdi Board on the floor. When screwed to the framing, thin strips of cement board fracture more easily than thin strips of fiber-cement. FRC board tends to be more moisture-resistant than gypsum board and is best suited for outdoor projects such as showers or tub surrounds. This means that even if your waterproofing system leaks, the cement board will remain intact. Mike Holmes uses backer on his show. Kerdi Board vs. Cement Board: What Are The Major Differences? if(typeof ez_ad_units!='undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[250,250],'remodelormove_com-narrow-sky-1','ezslot_27',168,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-remodelormove_com-narrow-sky-1-0');if(typeof ez_ad_units!='undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[250,250],'remodelormove_com-narrow-sky-1','ezslot_28',168,'0','1'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-remodelormove_com-narrow-sky-1-0_1');.narrow-sky-1-multi-168{border:none!important;display:block!important;float:none!important;line-height:0;margin-bottom:15px!important;margin-left:auto!important;margin-right:auto!important;margin-top:15px!important;max-width:100%!important;min-height:250px;min-width:250px;padding:0;text-align:center!important}Waterproofing should also be done on other areas in the shower as well such as the corners, window sills and other areas where water can easily accumulate. KERDI was developed as a waterproofing membrane to be used in . there should be a small gap between the backer board and the tub. A 1/2-inch thick, 3 x 5 foot sheet weighs just 7-1/2 pounds, compared with 45 pounds for a similar size sheet of cement board. Cement board is the most common and widely-known backer board. Finally, use a roller or brush to ensure that the membrane is secure and has no wrinkles or air bubbles. A complete schluter shower kit is like $700-$900 depending on the size - this includes the pitched foam shower pan. Connect and share knowledge within a single location that is structured and easy to search. Plus, most self-leveling formulas harden very fast, so you have to plan carefully so you can mix and pour quickly. When applying the primer, make sure to cover all surfaces thoroughly, as these will be completely covered by the KERDI membrane. Installation is simple- just trowel a layer of thin-set adhesive on the floor and embed the mat in it, then fill the cavities with thin-set. x 48 in. One of the major benefits of opting for Kerdi Board over cement board is the ease of installation. Being a Los Angeles resident, Jessica spends a lot of her time looking for her next DIY project and sharing her love for home design. The fastest method [for me and possibly other dilettants] is to stroke the knife at a diagonal to the comb marks, top down, center out, pushing all the air before you with short, overlapping strokes.-Thinset needs to be pretty darn wet: Needs to stay put when combed, but should be soft and shiney. Jun 21, 2017. The perfect fold is tricky and many of my first steam showers where built without the sealed slip joint. First, it's super lightweight compared with the rest. But there are downsides. The thickness of the tile is important, and should be known, but not because it changes the method of building. Browse other questions tagged, Start here for a quick overview of the site, Detailed answers to any questions you might have, Discuss the workings and policies of this site. Kerdi Membrane not sticking to cement board - John Bridge However if installed on drywall it is only protecting one side. More waste, yes, but I think you have to have a LOT of practice to hang those huge sheets like mongo does. Can you remove tile from Kerdi membrane? Houzz Pro: One simple solution for contractors and design pros, surfer thanked Avanti Tile & Stone / Stonetech. Kerdi is also used as shower lining, as required in IRC Section P2709.2 and IPC Section 417.5.2, over concrete, mortar, tile backerboard, expanded polystyrene foam board, prefabricated polystyrene shower trays, curb and ramp, gypsum board and masonry substrates." So, you can choose what board you want in your shower when using Kerdi. Out of curiosity, why are any of you suggesting backerboard at all? There is no cutting or fitting of boards, and a mortar bed is good for leveling and flattening uneven or out-of-level floors, which are common in old houses. Thanks for contributing an answer to Home Improvement Stack Exchange! Cross your fingers and hope it's all OK. Not the best Kerdi Showcase. Hello D Zak! If cement board had been used, most likely the damage would have been much less that what I have to deal with now. You still use metal lath, but then mix bags of powder and pour the soupy mix onto the floor. The shower is ready for tile. if(typeof ez_ad_units!='undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[580,400],'remodelormove_com-leader-2','ezslot_21',165,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-remodelormove_com-leader-2-0');Once the seams are sealed, lay down a waterproof coating to the floor and walls of the shower space. Wedi vs. Kerdi Waterproof Membranes: Which Is Better? KERDI features a modified polyethylene (PEVA) core with non-woven polypropylene on both sides to anchor the membrane in the thin-set mortar. How do I align things in the following tabular environment? Site design / logo 2023 Stack Exchange Inc; user contributions licensed under CC BY-SA. Why does the plumbing rough need to be moved? Schluter Ditra VS Cement Board (Which is better?) It also features fleece webbing that allows for effective anchoring into thin-set mortar. I used 1/2 Hardibacker board over the studs and then used the Kerdi membrane over the Hardi. When cleaning thinset off of Schluter membranes, the manufacturer recommends using a wet sponge and taking care to avoid any scoring or inconsistencies on the surface of the membrane. Kerdi Membrane Over Greenboard (Is It Recommended?) Kerdi membrane is a waterproofing material that is designed to be used in wet areas such as bathrooms and showers before tiles are installed. Just wondering how effective is the tile on kerdi membrane vs the traditional cement backboard where tiles are glued directly to the drywall? Step 8: Allow to dry. Prime first to create a flat, uniform surface that is free of dust, grease and other debris. I think I'll try using the thinned mixture of Redgard and then try the Kerdi membrane again. Hardie board is a cement-based siding product that is water-resistant, but not waterproof. the cost of the tile job. Both may be effective substrates, but Kerdi Board boasts significant advantages. You probably have to go to a big box store's special order desk or find a specialty tile supplier to find it. Cement board and grout are not water proof, if there's Kerdi no moisture is ever going to be able to get behind it. Do you have any pictures? Without an underlayment, even the slightest movement of the subfloor can result in cracking of the tile and crumbling of the grout lines. RedGard can be applied to cement board panels in two ways: Roll it on the wall with a 3/4-inch nap roller or spray it on the wall. Following these steps will help ensure that your shower space is properly sealed, and thus that the cement board is well protected from moisture. For indoor projects and gypsum board, thinset with a latex acrylic modifier is ideal. Shower Install - Cement Board or Schluter? - RedFlagDeals.com In my. Our thinset was more watery than the videos, but it still managed to dry out quickly, even in the time it takes to apply the small corners in our shampoo niche. (3ft-3in wide)Or will the Kerdi membrane (with seams taped with kerdi band) prevent each board from moving . We installed cement board on the walls, and today when we attempted to apply the Kerdi membrane we could not get it to adhere. Finally, make sure to select a thinset that is appropriate for the job, check the manufacturers recommendation, and always follow the instructions on the product label. PROBLEM SOLVED for Tub Flange when Installing Cement Board and Tile. What was the indicator that let you know that spritzing was not enough, and that you needed to 'sponge' the Hardi? Other mistakes I was making early on:-over working the thinset. Plus, if you use the mold and moisture resistant drywall, it will be extra insurance against mold. I don't want to use the Ditra membrane product but rather tiles directly over the cement boards. If you want to go to the extra effort of putting the membrane over drywall, there is no need to use greenboard. Moisture resistant can cause similar problems, and there is absolutely no advantage to it. The Kerdi-Line prefab pans and drains make me feel way more comfortable with the waterproofing. Start by cleaning the cement board with a mineral oil soap; this will help reduce mold and mildew growth throughout the life of the shower. The surface of Wedi is perfect for bonding. Keep in mind that most tile setters err on the side of caution and brush a waterproofing membrane on top of cement board when it is in wet areas like showers or tub surrounds. Like cement board, the boards are heavy and hard to cut. When it comes to using thinset with Schluter products, the Schluter-Systems website recommends using unmodified thin-set mortars specifically designed for use with Schluter membranes. Schluter says that the Kerdi membrane and tile can be installed over standard gypsum wall board without any problems. if(typeof ez_ad_units!='undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[728,90],'remodelormove_com-mobile-leaderboard-2','ezslot_25',167,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-remodelormove_com-mobile-leaderboard-2-0');Waterproofing should be done prior to the installation of any tile including behind the shower tile. :/. Once youre sure that the membrane is completely dry, you can then move forward with tiling. Bathroom closets are often catch-alls for anything and everything remotely related to self-care. Blocking should be constant across this area when openings are larger than your fist. In the worst case, it's OK to cut the Kerdi, remove the damaged section, scrape up the thinset from the areas, and set a new piece of Kerdi. After priming, use an approved adhesive to adhere the KERDI membrane to the drywall, making sure the edges are well sealed and joints are tight.if(typeof ez_ad_units!='undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[468,60],'remodelormove_com-medrectangle-4','ezslot_12',156,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-remodelormove_com-medrectangle-4-0'); A successful installation of KERDI requires well-prepared surfaces and a proper application, so take the time to properly prime the drywall before installation. modified thin-set mortar is not recommended to set ceramic and stone tile, including large format tiles, over the KERDI membrane. Can Kerdi membrane be installed over painted drywall? Welcome to the site. You absolutely need to include some sort of substrate (cement board, green board, regular drywall) with the Schluter-Kerdi waterproofing kit. It is important to seal any imperfections in the drywall to ensure a long-lasting installation and to minimize water infiltration. Thanks to all for the feedback. The curb doesn't have to be any wider than a 2x4. MAPEI makes products for each step of the remodel process, giving you a single source solution, and only one phone number to call if you need assistance! Properly waterproofing a shower area sharing a living room wall, Can I use cement accelerator to decrease setup time of modified thinset. I also used a larger sized trowel than the one recommend by Schluter. Yeah it seems that the only products that will be compatible with cement board and the kerdi membrane are bostik ditra-set and schluter all-set (or one of schluters other products). Can I install Kerdi board just on the walls of my shower and use a PVC membrane on the floor? I hope you made the guy flood test his work prior to tiling the shower floor. It is designed to form a waterproof layer between cement board and tiles, helping create a watertight installation. When applying Kerdi membrane to cement board, the edges and seams of the membrane must be lapped, meaning that each layer should overlap the portion underneath it by a minimum of two inches. One thing I do like fibercement (Hardie) for is when I need thin strips of cement board. Look at it this way; Withe Kerdi, you either trust it or you don't. This makes Kerdi Board suitable for a wide variety of interior applications, including kitchen countertops. As far as the tile/prep work, you are right that he is shifting the blame. Additionally, all thin-set should be allowed to cure for 24 hours before tiles are installed. Your Get free, zero-commitment quotes from pro contractors near you. Since KERDI is impervious, it does not deprive the mortar of its moisture. . For all the substrates listed in this Handbook (e.g., gypsum board, cement backerboard, etc. Step 4: Place the Tile. En cliquant sur Accepter , j'accepte l'utilisation des cookies telle qu'elle est dcrite plus en dtail dans la Politique d'Utilisation des Cookies de Houzz. Retired Moderator - Theatre Guy (and computers). The site is called floorelf.com. Step 7: Cut the Tile. To properly seal a cement board for a shower, its important to first properly prepare the surface. Furthermore, if you're working in an older home KERDI-BOARD fits better than cement board in odd spaces. Modified thinset adhesive is a premixed product that contains latex or acrylic components which make it quite a bit more flexible than regular thinset adhesive and therefore better suited to some applications. But I did want to understand the cost breakdown as the walls then become WAY more expensive than it would be with Redguard. Drywall under Kerdi would have been a better choice. Jessica considers herself a home improvement and design enthusiast. "thanks in advance :-) I know so little about this stuff, but when I watch videos (made by schluter-kerdi) everything looks so tidy and perfect - maybe that's not realistic'''" - Lisa Jasper It should look better than that and it's hard to tell but the wall stud spacing looks extreme and more than 16" I could not see if the screw heads where covered in the photos and in the one picture you can see that the screw and washer fitting where not covered.